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On the Brink with Andi Simon

Mar 20, 2023

Hear an incredible story of courage, kindness and resistance

Mimica Tsezana-Hyman is our guest on this podcast today. It is difficult to tell you about all that we discussed in a short paragraph. I encourage you to read the transcript and listen to the entire podcast, or watch it, which is even better. Mimica has a great story to tell which will move you deeply. The question is, how does an entire Jewish community escape the atrocities of Hitler’s 1943 occupation of Zakynthos, a small island in Greece? Because of courage, and kindness, they all survived, which is why Mimica is alive today. She will tell you about her own personal discoveries and what she is doing to keep our understanding of that horrific period alive so we don't find ourselves doing that again. It's an amazing story. I urge you to listen and be changed.

Watch and listen to our conversation here

Mimicas video

Mimica is doing something quite remarkable

Mimica was introduced to me by a good friend of mine, ML Ball, who said, “You must talk to Mimica. She's Greek and has an amazing story to tell.”

I was absolutely intrigued because I did my Ph.D. research in Athens. I took my daughters with me to the Greek island of Antiparos when they were four and five to spend three months learning about Greek women. I really loved the Greek culture, and am so glad that I had a chance to live in it, learn about it, and share it with my family. But I had never heard about this story before, and I am so glad I know it now.

Mimica grew up in Athens, graduated high school, then studied linguistics at Tel Aviv University. She emigrated to the United States in 1987 and now lives in Newburgh, New York, with her husband, Barry Hyman. Her family is very engaged in her story and the tragedy that was avoided in Greece so many years ago. She discovered this story a little bit by chance, and it has taken her on a journey you'll enjoy listening to. 

Sharing the past to educate and safeguard the future

For the past fifteen years, Mimica has been retelling the story of the Zakynthos Jewish community's miraculous survival through the presentation of the documentary “Song of Life” by Tony Lykouressis and the personal recollections of her father, uncle and grandparents. Her presentations summarize Jewish life on Zakynthos in the days before World War II, and describe how when Hitler's Nazis came to the island in 1943, the Jews were protected by the Metropolitan, the mayor, and the island’s residents. All 275 Jews, the entire Jewish population on Zakynthos, were saved. Their survival came through the courage of the non-Jews living in the villages and the powerful actions of Mayor Loukas Karrer and Metropolitan Chrysostomos Dimitriou. 

I am not going to give away the rest of the story. Listen in, watch, and read the transcript. Just remember that courageous people can rise against tyranny and save the lives of others if they choose to. What would each of us have done? A big question to ask as we live in a very volatile and violent world today.

To contact Mimica, you can find her on LinkedIn or email her at To see the list of all the places Mimica has given her presentation since 2000, click here.

More stories of courage and human kindness: 

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Read the transcript of our podcast here

Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon. I'm your host and your guide. Remember, On the Brink is designed to help you get off the brink and help you see, feel and think in new ways so you can change. That may be something you want to do or don't want to do. But, I want to bring you people who are going to help you see the world through a very fresh perspective.

I'm thrilled today to bring you Mimica Tsezana-Hyman. Mimica has a great story to tell. I'm going to let her tell you about it. But the question is: How does an entire Jewish community escape the atrocities of Hitler's occupation in 1943 on a small island in Greece? That's sort of a setup for today, because she's going to tell you about her own personal discoveries, and what she is doing in order to keep our understanding of the atrocities of that period alive and aware so that we don't find ourselves doing them again, even in bullying somebody.

A little bit more about Mimica. She was introduced to me by a good friend of mine who said, "You must talk to Mimica. She's doing something quite remarkable," and that she is. She was born in Athens. Now I was absolutely wonderfully intrigued because I did my research in Athens. I took my daughters when they were four and five to spend three months learning about Greek women. I went to the Basilica. I really love Greek culture and I was interested in how it changes when it comes to the United States.

She grew up there in Athens and graduated from high school, and then studied linguistics at Tel Aviv University. She emigrated to the United States in 1987. She lives in Newburgh, New York with her husband, Barry Hyman. She has a daughter, Sabrina, and a son, Samuel. And they are all very engaged in her new discovery because what she discovered was a little bit by chance, but it has taken her on a journey that you're going to enjoy listening to. Mimica, thank you for joining me today.

Mimica Tsezana-Hyman: Thank you for having me, Andi.

Andi Simon: It's such a pleasure. Tell the listeners a good deal more about your own background, this discovery that happened by chance, and what happened as a result of it, because all of us go through life and then have an aha moment and epiphany. And some take us in new directions and others take us deeper into where we are. Who is Mimica, what is your journey?

Mimica Tsezana-Hyman: I was born in Athens, Greece. I grew up during the 60s. And towards the end of the 60s, the government changed and we had a dictatorship. During the dictatorship, I was a little girl, I had no idea. My parents never spoke of politics in the house. And a friend of mine told me one time we were out walking, he says, "You know, we cannot be speaking about politics because we're not allowed to. Things may happen." And then all of a sudden I said, "What things may happen?" But it stayed there.

At home as I was growing up, I had my grandmother, my aunt, my uncle, my father, my mother. Life was very simple, very beautiful. We never spoken about what this generation had gone through. Not a word about the Holocaust. I remember specifically, Mrs. Esther was my grandmother's friend and Mrs. Esther had the number on her arm. And I would ask my grandmother, "Why does Mrs. Esther have a number written on her arm?" And my grandmother would say, "Oh, you don't know what we went through. I can't tell you. Something happened. I can't tell you." And this is where it would end. My grandmother would never speak about it.

So I figured I wasn't supposed to ask anymore. My generation, it's not only me and my brothers, it was the entire generation, the second generation post-Holocaust. We grew up with an immense amount of love and immense amount of protection from the family. And we never knew why. We thought that every child in the world was being brought up like that. We didn't know why.

As we grew up, we realized that there was a stronger love towards us. We felt special. When I went to Tel Aviv University, I met other people my age. I realized that they grew up the same way. They felt special. My friend Kosovo from Spain, my friend Carla from Brazil, from Iran, I had friends from Turkey, from all over. Our generation had something in common. We were special, and we didn't know how it happened. Why?

My father was very traditional in his Judaism. So tradition carried on beyond holidays. We were not allowed to turn on and off the light. And this was very strange, because the other Jewish people, the other members of the Jewish community of Athens, they would allow their kids to turn on and off the lights. My father was very scarred by the Holocaust. He was very influenced. But he never told us why this is the way he was. And we had to obey, we had to listen because otherwise...

I was a little miserable at home. That said, we had Christian friends, and of course, I went to the Jewish Elementary School of the Jewish community of Athens. And then I went to the American High School. And there I met a lot of other Christian classmates. In the elementary school, everybody was Jewish, but in the high school, I was the minority. And actually, it was wonderful because during the lesson of religion, the Jewish kids and one Catholic, we were allowed to leave the classroom, go to the library and focus on our homework. So that was the bonus of being Jewish.

Having said that, my name Mimica is not my true name. This is my Hollywood name. This is the name that everybody knew me by. Everybody was calling me that. And it wasn't only me. It was all the Jewish kids of my generation. We had our Hebrew names on our documents, on our diplomas, on our IDs, on our bank accounts, on everything else. But for everyday life, we were called Mimica, Solomon was called Sony, David was called Vikos, etc. My father Menahem-Moses was called Armando. My uncle Elkana was called Noulis.

So we had the names that were the everyday names. But when I came to America, I said, "Oh well, you know, this is my Hollywood name" because everybody signs a check to me, Mimica Hyman. And the bank looks at my papers and says, "This is Simha Hyman" and I say, "Yes, Mimica is my Hollywood name." It does cause a little bit of a problem but what can I do. And then of course I tell them, "You know, I'm a Greek Jew and this is what we do because anti-Semitism in Greece is still quite high."

During the Holocaust, Greece lost 87% of the Jews. So the story that I am engaged with, which is the story of my father and the Jewish community of the island of Zakynthos, is a very unique story. It's a story of a mayor, a priest, and the people of the island of Zakynthos saving the entire Jewish community of the island, saving 275 people and breathing life to the generations that followed.

I am here with my kids, my brothers, my niece, my nephews. We are here because of that act. I didn't know about the story. Life continued. We kept our traditions, we had our seders and we went to the synagogue every high holiday and Passover. And then I decided to go and study in Tel Aviv. And my mother told me, "Every Wednesday you're going to find a public phone, and you're going to call me collect so that I know that you are well," because of course, there were no cell phones in those days. The dormitories of Tel Aviv University did not have phones in the rooms of the students.

And every Wednesday I was going to that phone calling my mother to tell her that I am alive and I am well. One Wednesday, my mother tells me, "Don't call me next week because we're not going to be here." It was winter time. So where are you going? My parents rarely left Athens. "Oh, we are going to Zakynthos." "Why are you going? It's winter time." Zakynthos was a summer destination, a beautiful island with the Caretta turtles that chose that island to give birth. You know, Greenpeace was protecting the beaches there. So we are not allowed to speak loudly. You're not allowed to speak at all, don't disturb the turtles.

But everything was happening in the summertime here because the planets are going into winter time. "Oh we're going to honor a priest and the mayor." I was brought up so Jewish that I wasn't even allowed to speak to a normal Christian. Here you are going to honor a priest? Something is not right. Something was very, very different. And I said, "Dad is going to honor a priest?" "Well, don't you know this story?" "What story?" and she told me the story. She told me the story that I had never heard before. I didn't know.

In 1941, the Italians had invaded the island of Zakynthos during the Italian occupation. The people of Zakynthos were living in fear as did everybody. But the Italians were not very aggressive. In 1943, The Germans came to the island; they sent the Italians away. And the next morning, Officer Berens calls Mayor Loukas and tells him, "I want the list with the Jews of the island. Be very careful because the next time it will be my gun that will speak instead of my mouth."

Mayor Loukas Karrer said, "Okay, tomorrow you will have the list." He goes away. He speaks to the Metropolitan Chrysostomos Dimitriou, they call the rabbi. And they decide overnight to tell the Jews of the island to leave their homes overnight and go hide in the mountains. They tell the locals, "Protect them and don't give them away." 

My grandmother, she was the daughter of a merchant and her hobby was jewelry. I must say that in those days up until today, there was no stock market. So jewelry was not only given as a form of beauty and durability, but because of the gold or the silver metal that they were made of, it was also given as a form of investment because women were not allowed to work. So they went from the house of the father to the house of the future husband or the husband. So all they had were the jewelry. If they would find themselves in need, they would exchange jewelry towards whatever the need was.

She talked about how my grandmother put all her jewelry inside, tied it around her waist, threw a long skirt over it, and she went hiding in the mountains with the rest of the family for an entire year. They lived through selling the jewelry or exchanging the jewelry towards satisfying their daily needs. The locals that were hiding them were very good to them. They would bring them some bread or food or whatever they could because don't forget, there wasn't a lot of food in those days. But still they did what they could.

The next morning, they found themselves in front of the German officer with a list. On the list there were two names written in German and in Greek: Mayor Loukas Karrer. Metropolitan Chrysostomos Dimitriou. "Take us. The Jews are part of our followers. They have done no harm, they will never do any harm. This is our decision." Through further negotiations, they were able to save 275 Jews. My father, my grandmother and my uncle were part of that Jewish community. At this point, I must point out that the neighboring island of Corfu which also had a much more vibrant and more affluent Jewish community. lost 95% of the Jews. The locals handed the Jews to the Germans.

I remember when I was writing my speech...actually, I should tell you how I started doing speeches about this story in the year 2000. I was expecting my son. And all of a sudden my aunt and my mother called me. The reason? "A documentary is being done and your uncle is part of the documentary. And he's becoming a star." I said, "Send me a copy." "Yes, yes, we will send you a copy." I never saw a copy. The documentary is traveling around Europe, it went to Switzerland and it went to France, and it went here and it went there. "Send me a copy." "Yes, yes, we'll send you a copy." I never saw a copy. 

Life continued in America. And one evening, I got a call from a friend across the river, George Petrakis. He lived in Poughkeepsie. And he tells me, "Mimica, turn on the satellite TV, there are some Jewish ladies that are speaking. You may know them." Now, of course, Greece having lost 87% of the Jews was left with 5000 Jews. When I left Greece, it was 4999, the Jews that were left there. "You may know those ladies."

So I turn on the TV and I see those ladies, and they did look very familiar to me, and all of a sudden here is my uncle sitting in his living room having all those photographs on the mantle of his fireplace. One of them actually was of my wedding. And I said, "Oh my God, this must be the documentary about the story of the Jewish community of Zakynthos during World War II." So I told Sabrina and Samuel, "Please take your negotiations to the other room because I really have to watch this."

And the more I'm watching, here are some cousins from Corfu, survivors, and here are other people that I knew from the Jewish community of Zakynthos. And all of a sudden tears come down my face. And my husband came with a box of tissues and he sat quietly next to me on the sofa. When the documentary ended, I had an outpour of expressions and feelings. I went in front of the computer, and I started writing an email to all my friends. That email traveled.

And all of a sudden, I'm getting responses from people I had never even met. And one of the responses was from a couple that were born and raised in the island of Zakynthos. They were diplomats and at the time they were serving as the Greek Consulate in Montreal. His name is Harry Manesis and his wife Efi Pylarinou.

During the Passover vacation, we took the kids and we went to Montreal. We met with them and I told both of them, "You know, I started doing these presentations and people are interested," and Harry turns to me and says, "Mimica, take a piece of paper and write down every presentation that you do, because the day will come that you will not remember how many presentations you have done." And thank God that I listened to him because I am at this point that I don't remember how many have done if I don't look at the paper.

That winter, when Greece commemorates the Holocaust of the Jewish community, the Greek Consulate of Manhattan was showing this film, “Song of Life” by Tony Lykouressis. And of course, I went because I always want to support anything that has to do with the Jewish community of Greece, and Athens especially, and they asked me to speak. And I spoke and my husband said, "People were crying." I said, "Was I that bad?" He says, "No, I think you touched them, you touched their feelings. It is very rare that adults will tear." I said, "Okay, that's nice."

And then I was invited to speak at the second annual Greek Film Festival in Manhattan. And I went to speak and of course, my son was six years old at the time, and he was very attached to me. And I remember at that event, they first showed the movie, which was an hour and 10 or 15 minutes long. That's how long the “Song of Life” is. And I was drawing all kinds of little animals for my son on the back of my speech. So when I got up to speak, and I had my speech, the audience could see all the little turtles and rabbits and elephants that I drew.

But it was very interesting. In every presentation that they have done, something happens that makes me remember the presentation. In this one, I remember the people were lining up around the block. It was at the Village Cinema down in the Village. And my husband says, "Mimica, you have to speak to this gentleman." And of course, I have to tell you, when I went to that first actual presentation, I brought with me Anna Yianakis who has a Greek restaurant in Newburgh, I brought with me the Foundas couple who had a beauty salon, I brought with me George Petrakis, my kids, my husband, so I had all my close friends that supported what I was about to do. They came with me down to Manhattan.

So my husband finds a man and says, "Mimica, you have to speak to this man." And I go, it was a gentleman with a long coat. And he opens his jacket, and he brings out a photograph and he says, "Mimica, look at this photograph. Is this your father?" I look at him and I said "No." He says, "This is my father and they were friends. Are you sure this is not your father?" I said "No but I know who you are. You are Jeff Mordos, our fathers were friends, you came to Zakynthos back in 1967, 1968, you were from America, you spoke English. I couldn't believe how well you spoke your Greek, then you had an accent." He just couldn't believe I knew who he was. And we've stayed friends ever since.

I remember my mother telling me, "Mimica you have a husband that works from five to nine, you have two small kids, what do you need this for?" I wasn't doing it for the money. And that was a little bit discouraging. And then I sat back and I said, The story must be told, because it's a story with a lot of messages.

First of all, it is the only story in the European Holocaust selection of stories that you have the state, the church and the people work together towards a successful result. The Jews were hidden by monasteries, by families, by individuals, by organizations, but here, having such a collaboration of the state, the church and the people to work together and have a successful result, it's unheard of. And that to me, it gave me a reason to get up and speak.

When I speak to high schools, and usually I speak to the 12th grade. I tell them, "Now that you're about to graduate and your life will change, make sure you pick your leaders well, because these people listen to their leaders. Keep your friendships because it's the friends and the neighbors that hid the Jews, protected them and saved them."

I tell them, "Listen to what goes on around you in a big university, because Metropolitan Chrysostomos Dimitriou had befriended Hitler at Munich University when he was a student. I will never forget that my uncle and my father told me that the people of Zakynthos knew of what was going on in other parts of the world. They knew how the Jews were being burned dead or alive, mass graves, executions, etc. I mean, not to forget all the experiments that were done and we have all these beautiful medicines today. They even told me that one day, there was a truck that came to the island of Zakynthos with soap, and they saw that the truck had come from Germany. And they took this soap and they buried it because they knew it was the body of a Jewish person.

A friend asked me, "Mimica, how did the people of Zakynthos know that the Germans were killing the Jews? Here we know that in other parts of Europe, the Jews like flocks they were going to the center square of their town. They went in the trains, they went in the trucks, they went in the boats. If they knew that they were walking towards their deaths, they would have reacted. How come the people of Zakynthos knew and they protected them?"

I said, "That's a good question." So I go back to my uncle and my father, and my uncle tells me the following story. And this is a story where I alert the students of high school. And I say, "This is where you come in. The family in downtown Zakynthos, they had the pharmacy, had the son. The son went to study medicine in Germany. During the summer vacation, the boy came home and told them what was going on. And of course, the parents spread the bad news to the rest of the island. So when you go to the universities, keep your eyes and ears open, see what's going on around. You are not invisible. You are very important and you  matter."

These are the messages that I want to pass to the people that hear my speeches. Kindness, respect for human rights, are more contagious than hatred and destruction. And that's what we should aim for.

My father told me that one time the Germans had put him on the line to impose forced labor onto him and other people. The Christians were going in front of my father, directing him towards the end of the line, trying to avoid contact with the German officers that were in the front of the line and were dispersing people to work. This is an unbelievable act of kindness. 

The sister of Metropolitan Chrysostomos Dimitriou, Mrs. Vasiliki Stravolemou, was the head of the Home Economics School in the island. I have to point out that this was the only university for women in those days. She had some Jewish students, and they got sick, and they needed medical attention, and she had to bring them to a doctor. Now the only facility for medical care was the German military hospital. What was she going to do? She takes the girls, she finds herself in front of the German doctor and says, "I bring to you these girls, as patients and not as Jews. I expect you to remember that you gave the oath of Hippocrates when you became a doctor and treat them." The German doctor treated them and on the way out he told her, "Medicine is a science and awaits patients." Which was wonderful. I mean, she did everything that she was supposed to do. She was gutsy and strong and she really helped.

My father tells me a story. He says, "When we were hiding in the village of Gaitani, at the Sarakini family, they had the little black dog." And one day my father was in one of those rooms of the house. And a soldier comes into the house looking for men to put them to forced labor. And the dog starts barking. I mean, as the soldier is looking in the rooms, he's quiet for the first, second, third room, and starts barking at the soldier when he was about to enter the room where my father was hiding. He made so much noise, that drove the soldier away. My father tells me, "You know, that dog that day saved my life." Even the pets were protecting the Jews in that island.

But I must tell you my father never allowed pets in the house. He was allergic or I don't know how to explain this, he was too clean. But every time that we had a meal, he would take the leftovers for the stray dogs and the stray cats. I think this was something that stayed with him all his life.

There were other stories but I think I've told you the most part, the biggest part of my journey. Is there anything that you can remember Andi that I should mention?

Andi Simon: No, I'm listening here as I'm sure our listeners and viewers are listening, because remember, when you tell a story, the story in somebody's mind begins to change. And last night before our podcast today, I watched “Song of Life” by Tony Lykouressis. It is available on YouTube. It's about an hour. It is transformative. The people in it are like Mimica’s uncle: anxious to tell you their story. You will never know the story. We're never going to go back to the past. But the past sets the stage for the future.

And what Mimica is communicating to us is this amazing place where people came together in a very unusual way to save others and to give them love. One of the scenes in there is, one of the gentlemen goes back to the village where he was being cared for. And the woman is crying and she is hugging him. And then at the end of the video it really brings tears to your eyes, because they're all together around the table. Nothing better than breaking bread together. And the music and they're singing. And the singing of the songs remind us that we are all one in a fashion that brings us back to love each other. Mimica, you're smiling at me.

Mimica Tsezana-Hyman: I have to tell you about that specific scene when Samuel would go to Mrs. Rapsomaniki. They used to, when they would hear the Germans were coming, they would leave the baby with her and go hiding somewhere else. And it was an unbelievable scene to see her alive and well, to come out of her house and hug each other. They were more than family, these people. 

But what was interesting to me is, you know, when I was growing up, in my generation, we cared about what we looked like. We cared about what face cream to put on, to go to the gym, to look good. I mean, before we did anything in our daily lives, we always cared about what we looked like, and the hair, and the things, and the jewelry. And here is a giant of a hero coming out with just a plain dress. She was a little heavy. She didn't care about the gym. She didn't care about fashion, she didn't care about going to the hairdresser. She didn't care about her looks. Yet here is a hero, a true life hero.

So I remember specifically, I was at a school where all the girls looked alike. And they had the long hair and they had the similar outfits and so on. And it was clear to me that this was done with a lot of attention to the looks. And I said, "Now look at this woman. Do you see this woman? She saved an entire family. Do you think she goes to the gym? No. Do you think she goes to Bloomingdale's to buy clothes? No. Do you think she goes to the hairdresser to have beautiful hair? Do you think she does makeup? No. Yet she is the biggest hero, in her own right.

You know, it was very interesting that you were impressed by the same part of the movie that I was. Also, I have to say, this is very important, that when everything ended, my father and my uncle and all the other Jews of the island donated the windows and their personal labor for the St. Eunysis Cathedral.

I have to say that in Greece, the main religion is Greek Orthodox. And in Greek Orthodoxy, there are a lot of saints. So every island has this saint that is the protector of the island. Zakynthos has St. Eunysis and this was the cathedral that was being erected. And when it came to finding proposals about the windows, the Jews went and said, "This is our expense. We will do it as a give back because of our gratitude to our saviors."

Another thing that was very interesting to me is that, and this is a very touching moment, in 1953 there was a massive earthquake that leveled the island. And that's when the Jewish community left the island. Part of the Jewish community went to Israel and part of it went to Athens. My family decided to go to Athens. The first boats that arrived in the island with humanitarian and medical help were the ones of the Israeli Navy. And it's very interesting because now we could give back. Up until then, we were just guests, and nobody wants guests to stay on their premises forever. It's very touching for me.

Um, but you know, looking back at the summers that I spent in the island, the people that I met didn't know about this story. And I usually finish my speech by saying that I didn't know then, while I was enjoying everything that the island had to offer: the beautiful beaches, the beautiful weather, the beautiful restaurants where the waiters throw away the apron and get their guitars and they start singing to you the very traditional Zakythenian songs, the cantadas. I didn't know that I was brought to the safest place on earth that a Jew could have been brought. Life continues. And the people of Zakynthos, some of them still don't know the story but slowly, slowly, they will learn it.

Andi Simon: Here's what I'd like to do. Because part of the joy that you're bringing, in sharing this, is inspiring young people and people like ourselves, to not simply accept what is but to understand the role we can play through kindness, through courage, through boldness, to change. And I must tell you that the world isn't easy right now. And giving back is very important and kindness. You have to remember that acts of kindness improve your own sense of well-being in ways that are difficult to truly understand. You too can do things that are going to make someone else's life really beautiful.

And what Mimica is doing is taking this story, part her story and part the larger story and making it come alive so others can in fact, both understand it, learn from it, and then look at their own lives and make sure that they too can do something meaningful, moral, ethical, and kind. Mimica, last thoughts as we wrap up, because I think this has been a beautiful opportunity. You did not read your speech but you told it from your heart, and I just loved it. Any last thoughts for the listener?

Mimica Tsezana-Hyman: Yes. I think that this story should be told everywhere, especially in Holocaust classes and young adults. We teach Holocaust to our schools. And they have to learn about the atrocities that happened and more or less genocide that the Jewish people underwent. But also they have to learn about the happy stories, and this is a happy story. To me, it's very important to direct the young people towards doing good, not only showing them how horrible other people behave, but how beautiful life can be by doing good.

Andi Simon: Loving, caring for each other. This is truly a beautiful story. I will tell the listeners that in the blog post and on the video, I'll have the link to “Song of Life" and I urge you to watch it. It captivates you and you cannot leave it until it's over. And then you want to know, what has happened next, and so Mimica will bring you back at another time to talk about the impact you're having on those students, the stories they're bringing you, and I urge our listeners to send us your stories.

I'm going to wrap up now because I think it's time for us to let our listeners move on. Here's what I'd like you to do: is where you can get information about both Mimica and about our work. And I'd like to help you see, feel and think in new ways. This certainly has been a transformative interview. Our podcast is just beautiful. And when you watch it, you're going to be engaged with Mimica as if she's standing in front of you. Invite her, invite her to come. I promise we will have all her information there so that you can find her as well. And take a look at her website. She'll tell you about the Jewish Museum she set up at the temple, all kinds of things that she's doing to make this world come alive for people who are Jewish and not Jewish together, because it isn't just one or the other, it's together we can do better. I want to say goodbye, and thank you all for coming. Bye bye now.